God

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God

Post by Guest on May 18th 2013, 4:02 am

This is in my view an excellent post on Absence.
These are not my words but they express my philosophy.



About God (about which there can really be nothing about):

There doesn't need to be any understanding other than the obvious...that what I(God)Am is no object.

If I(God) am no objective thing then I am not a subject either because a subject is also an object.

Anything other than this direct intuitive understanding means someone is having views, i.e. conceptualizing like.. God is love, light, omnipotent, the universe, everlasting, power, grace, all knowing, etc., etc.

Even this intuitive realization can become conceptual. If so, then I (God) become some objectivized thing. But I can't be a thought, or thought of, because what I am is necessarily unconscious of being conscious.

As a conceptualized thought I(God) see what I am as a kind of object which is a non-object. But what I am is not a non-object. I am total objective absence which is total subjective presence that is as unaware of absence as of presence.

So, I(God) am not, whereby I am...I who am necessarily everything and no thing, and neither any nor no thing.

All conceptualizing of God is objectifying subject, a temporal process by which subject seeks to objectify itself, which by the way is THE primary illusory process.

If I (God) am sought objectively I will never be found because I am no object.

Non-objectively regarded, I can't be known at all. Yet I unselfconsciously AM.

Absence is phenomenally negative and objects are phenomenally positive. Only by negating the objective can Absence be revealed. Then I (God) as I AM..am revealed.

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Re: God

Post by Aussiepom on May 18th 2013, 9:04 am

I was thinking about God last night after watching something on telly,Stephen.

Wondering if God does exist but not so much that particular subject how the name of God came into existence.
Where did the idea of God arise from? There must be some proof that a 'God' existed.
Who first heard of God? Where did he arise from?

Joan
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Re: God

Post by laura ann on May 18th 2013, 9:22 am

[img][/img]© laura
needs no words..pic I took several years ago
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Re: God

Post by Guest on May 18th 2013, 11:09 am

Dear Joan,
Laura Ann's picture ,for me, anyway captures very beautifully
the relationship of Absence and Presence.
The sky symbolically is the no-object no-subject Absence.
Immanent within this Absence and co-existent in it is the Presence
which in the picture are the clouds.

This is similar to the hole in the bagel.Who defines who?The hole or the bread.
They both define each other.The same with the picture the sky defines the clouds and the clouds define the sky.
They represent a wholeness which in us is what we call 'I'.
This 'I' is Mind.
God is Mind and cannot be defined as object or subject.The I is intuitive
knowing and also cannot be defined.
I am sorry if I do not succeed in explaining this very well.
Laura Ann thanks for the picture .May I copy it?
Stephen


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Re: God

Post by sunmystic on May 18th 2013, 11:45 am

Annihilation of self leaves nothing but God. sunmystic
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Re: God

Post by sunmystic on May 18th 2013, 11:54 am

Stephen you have reached the point that begins to drop the veil that is between that which is us and that which is God (the I am that I am). John
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Re: God

Post by Aussiepom on May 18th 2013, 12:47 pm

Now I understand,Stephen. God is always present in the atmosphere but never seen.

Wonderful.....I love the photo. says it all. Praying

Joan
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Re: God

Post by Guest on May 18th 2013, 12:50 pm

Hi John,
Nice to hear from you again.
I think you are correct.But an aspect of myself
says not just yet.
Have you been through this veil?
If you do not wish to talk about it.I understand.
Somethings are not for others.
Stephen

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Re: God

Post by Guest on May 18th 2013, 12:57 pm

Dear Joan,
Your insight is very good.
But it is like what John says.This thought self
needs to fall away and that in my opinion is in
the hands of a greater presence than a little I.
Help and guidance are essential.
When the time is right for all of us,it happens.
It is a natural process of growth.
Stephen

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Re: God

Post by sunmystic on May 18th 2013, 3:50 pm

skfarblum wrote:Hi John,
Nice to hear from you again.
I think you are correct.But an aspect of myself
says not just yet.
Have you been through this veil?
If you do not wish to talk about it.I understand.
Somethings are not for others.
Stephen

Stephen, I do not mind talking about it Smile , it is just the how to talk about it is an interesting challenge. Annihilation of self is considered a sacrifice. And if done in a permanent way is basically considered the ultimate sacrifice. You as a self ceases to exist and your physical body, spirit body, and mind are possessed and used by God (the I am that I am). On the surface Stephen the whole thing sounds kind of ugly Smile . And to be honest, I have been kicking around and working on this "annihilation of self" an awful long time. The whole dog gone thing is just not natural Smile !

Some of the yogi types talk about you being a drop of water that enters the ocean and just disappear. There is no ocean, there is just absolute nothingness that is something. A "profoundly powerful force" is an interesting way of describing "it". It has no self, it has no feelings, and it does not think. "It just is." Because it has no self and it "just is" the only way that you can connect with it is to have no self and to be in a state of "just is". Otherwise "it" becomes a mirror image of us and what we see is our self, not "it". So when we are wrestling with what we consider God we are actually wrestling with ourselves.

Personally I have reached a point in my life where I do not consider "annihilation of self" a sacrifice. I am very unhappy with self and I can not fix it (self). So if the "just is" wants my physical presence so "it" can see and experience creation from the inside of creation and "it" will look after my loved ones "it" can have my physical presence. I don't mind. Now what Jesus (the Christian messiah Jesus) is telling me is that you do not die when you annihilate self and allow the "just is" to posses you. What He is telling me is that you just enter into another state of being and that with this other state of being, over time, the whole thing begins to make sense and you wonder why you didn't do this in the first place. In essence you end up having your cake and eating it too. It is just that you have to give up your cake before you can have your cake Smile . I don't know Stephen, the whole thing sounds to me like something out of the "Twilight Zone" and I have been exploring this stuff non stop my whole life. So Stephen when you say that you are not ready I understand Smile I am not ready either, there should be some other way of doing this. It is just that I have reached a point in my life where I have tried everything else and I do not have anything else to do and I do trust Jesus and He says to give it a try as a permanent state of being. And apparently it is not that hard to do, you just annihilate the upper back part of your brain and annihilate "self" and "walla" you are connected to the "profoundly power force" that "just is" and entering into a new state of being. I tried it and it works and I am now tossing around creating the permanent aspect of it. Love, John
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Re: God

Post by Aussiepom on May 18th 2013, 5:29 pm

Reading your answer,John I can understand how you feel.

Sitting here at home on my own,I started thinking of my life and wondering where my physical life has disappeared to.

What have I accomplished? I have lived my life to the best of my ability. I have lived my life for others as well as myself.
Hopefully I have never been too selfish,worried about my family,still do even though they are adults now.

But where is the 'me' inside of this physical shell?

What have I accomplished? Nothing startling. Nothing exciting. An ordinary life with nothing to show for it.

So why am I here? Why am I living on this planet called earth?

Joan
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Re: God

Post by Guest on May 19th 2013, 12:49 am

Dear John,
I do understand what you have written.We are different
and naturally I have my own way of seeing things.
In myself I would say my inner light has changed.
Nothing phenomenal just that little bit of extra brightness and greater clarity.
I do not think one can avoid this Totality.Giving up self
or the image of self happens as part of growth.
I suspect that there is a personal aspect that renews
a self whenever it is required.The Totality more embraces than annihilates.
I think you put yourself down to much.
I too am often over critical of my behaviour,so I empathize with this attitude.So please forgive me if
I have over stepped any boundaries.
Stephen

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Re: God

Post by Guest on May 19th 2013, 1:15 am

Dear Joan,
You sound like Ecclesiastes.
So many in the past and present felt or
feel like you.
The end of the Book of Ecclesiastes is not very
comforting.Being human is a constant tension between
a self and something greater than us,over which we
have no control.
Giving up a self is easier said than done.
Survival in the Afterlife may mean for some a more
trouble free existence but I do not know if there is
a resolution of individuality and the Totality.
I at this stage hold to my individuality and hope for
guidance and help from those kindly spirits who care.
Stephen

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Re: God

Post by Arbel on May 19th 2013, 5:12 am

It is said we are made in the image of God but it is certainly not these human forms so for what it is worth how do we know if we have actually seen God or not. What ever the case a thought came to me what if God can change his image into a spirit image just like our own human image changes to a spirit image when we pass over.

If we are made in the image of God does that not prove all those who are highly evolved spirits in that image of God can actually talk to God in the spirit world? In this human form our human minds cannot even begin to comprehend the mysteries of God and the higher realms of spirit.



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Re: God

Post by Guest on May 19th 2013, 5:37 am

Dear Bill,
I feel you are onto something here.I see no reason why God as an no-object no-subject non-essence absence
cannot crystallize him/herself into a form and become somebody.We are dealing with unrestrained freedom here.
Nice idea.
Stephen

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Re: God

Post by Aussiepom on May 19th 2013, 11:08 am

skfarblum wrote:Dear Joan,
You sound like Ecclesiastes.
So many in the past and present felt or
feel like you.
The end of the Book of Ecclesiastes is not very
comforting.Being human is a constant tension between
a self and something greater than us,over which we
have no control.
Giving up a self is easier said than done.
Survival in the Afterlife may mean for some a more
trouble free existence but I do not know if there is
a resolution of individuality and the Totality.
I at this stage hold to my individuality and hope for
guidance and help from those kindly spirits who care.
Stephen


'Giving up a self'.

I would hate to do that,Stephen. To lose our individuality and become the same as all or one part of a mass.
That reminds me of the frog spawn which are born like tadpoles. Or so we used to call them.
Used to make me shudder....
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Re: God

Post by Aussiepom on May 19th 2013, 11:11 am

Arbel wrote:It is said we are made in the image of God but it is certainly not these human forms so for what it is worth how do we know if we have actually seen God or not. What ever the case a thought came to me what if God can change his image into a spirit image just like our own human image changes to a spirit image when we pass over.

If we are made in the image of God does that not prove all those who are highly evolved spirits in that image of God can actually talk to God in the spirit world? In this human form our human minds cannot even begin to comprehend the mysteries of God and the higher realms of spirit.



Bill

'Change his image into a spirit image'.

That has made me think,Bill.
A different image to suit everyone's religion.
Even those who not believe in religion. Now there's a thought indeed.

Joan
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Re: God

Post by sunmystic on May 19th 2013, 12:05 pm

the Spirituality Forum's discussion guide line statement wrote:Spirituality


The
study of spirituality goes deeply into the heart of every matter and
extends far beyond the physical world of matter. Spirituality connects
you with the profoundly powerful and divine force that's present in this
universe. Whether you're looking for worldly success, inner peace, or
supreme enlightenment, no knowledge can propel you to achieve your goals
and provide as effective a plan for living as does spiritual knowledge.

I guess my question is, "Does the above have anything to do with what we are calling "God"?" and, "Does the above have anything to do with what we are discussing in this topic?"

John
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Re: God

Post by Guest on May 19th 2013, 12:07 pm

I also feel like you Joan.It would be a retrogade step.
Stephen

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Re: God

Post by sunmystic on May 19th 2013, 12:42 pm

skfarblum wrote:This is in my view an excellent post on Absence.
These are not my words but they express my philosophy.



About God (about which there can really be nothing about):

There doesn't need to be any understanding other than the obvious...that what I(God)Am is no object.

If I(God) am no objective thing then I am not a subject either because a subject is also an object.

Anything other than this direct intuitive understanding means someone is having views, i.e. conceptualizing like.. God is love, light, omnipotent, the universe, everlasting, power, grace, all knowing, etc., etc.

Even this intuitive realization can become conceptual. If so, then I (God) become some objectivized thing. But I can't be a thought, or thought of, because what I am is necessarily unconscious of being conscious.

As a conceptualized thought I(God) see what I am as a kind of object which is a non-object. But what I am is not a non-object. I am total objective absence which is total subjective presence that is as unaware of absence as of presence.

So, I(God) am not, whereby I am...I who am necessarily everything and no thing, and neither any nor no thing.

All conceptualizing of God is objectifying subject, a temporal process by which subject seeks to objectify itself, which by the way is THE primary illusory process.

If I (God) am sought objectively I will never be found because I am no object.

Non-objectively regarded, I can't be known at all. Yet I unselfconsciously AM.

Absence is phenomenally negative and objects are phenomenally positive. Only by negating the objective can Absence be revealed. Then I (God) as I AM..am revealed.

The above is Stephen's topic OP. This OP expresses his philosophy. "Only by negating the objective can Absence be revealed." This concept is a very advanced concept in the world of the mystic experience and all true mystics end up coming to a conclusion that is either this concept or a version of this concept. The question is, "How could they possibly come to this conclusion?" After all "God" has to have qualities otherwise "God" can not be experienced. It is only logical. The next question is, "Why is this very advanced concept Stephen's philosophy? How did Stephen come to understand this very advanced mystic concept?" What in the heck goes on in a mystics mind that causes that mind to come to the conclusion that "only be negating the object can the "Absence" be revealed." If one is a normal rational person, then this would be illogical. Yet Smile all advanced mystics keep saying the same thing. John
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Re: God

Post by Guest on May 19th 2013, 12:51 pm

Dear John,
Very nice.
My first thought was yes God could be spiritual knowledge and a pure
spirit being.But is he the creator?
Is there prior to God a mysterious unknowable unknowingness from
which God comes and which is the true creator?
There does seem to be.Several mystics report an experience of it.
There is Bohme
" "When you are art gone forth wholly from the creature [human], and have become nothing to all that is nature and creature, then you are in that eternal one, which is God himself, and then you will perceive and feel the highest virtue of love. Also, that I said whoever findes it finds nothing and all things; that is also true, for he finds a supernatural, supersensual Abyss, having no ground, where there is no place to live in; and he finds also nothing that is like it, and therefore it may be compared to nothing, for it is deeper than anything, and is as nothing to all things, for it is not comprehensible; and because it is nothing, it is free from all things, and it is that only Good, which a man cannot express or utter what it is. But that I lastly said, he that finds it, finds all things, is also true; it has been the beginning of all things, and it rules all things. If you find it, you come into that ground from whence all things proceed, and wherein they subsist, and you are in it a king over all the works of God." [The Way to Christ, 1623)

There is also Nisargadatta and his "absolute awareness"
Maharaj declared: "I speak every day on the same subject." (Seeds of Consciousness, p. 165) That subject was our real Identity as the birthless-deathless, infinite-eternal Absolute Awareness or Parabrahman, and Its play of emanated universal consciousness.

So there is some truth here.
I think it is probably sufficient for most to hold to the idea that Mind is
All and all creation proceeded from Mind.
John this perhaps answers your latest post.
However for some the "Abyss" calls.No choice.
Stephen

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Re: God

Post by Arbel on May 19th 2013, 1:27 pm

The question of does God exist has been debated many times
and we are no closer now that we were then; one tiny little gem is that God
brought himself to life and donít ask me how it happened because I do not have
a clue



God is an illusion to every one and yet if we seek the
illusion with all our heart and soul knowing that we are right in the seeking
then the illusion becomes reality. A question
is would we truly know God if his first ambassador were to appear on this earth
and prove what God exists and describes God in detail






Bill
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Re: God

Post by sunmystic on May 19th 2013, 1:53 pm

It is my opinion that the mystic tries everything and finds that everything that is related to what one can understand does not work. At that point he has to start thinking outside of the box, so to speak. The simplest outside of the box approach would be to test the opposite. The opposite of "what one can understand" is "nothingness/Absence/abyss". And if you take "self" into "nothingness/Absence/abyss", then "self" ceases to exist. Because "self" says, "If I cease to exist, then I die and death is the wrong direction.", no rational person would choose to enter "nothingness/Absence/abyss". The world is flat and if you sail far enough you will then fall off of it and parish. The mystic sails off a bit and then comes back and says, "Hey guys Smile , the world is not flat, it is round." And then he has the audacity to add, "And there is a whole new beautiful world out there!" Thus, generally speaking, causing a rational minded person to say, "Ya right." and then turn around and walk off. And in all honesty that is fair. If the mystic expects to be believed, then that mystic should sail off and then come back with gifts that the rational mind can see, smell and taste. Gifts that can be experienced by the rational mind. The problem is that these mystics are like the Christian Christ Jesus, they sail off and don't come back Smile . And from there everything is turned into an intellectual exercise. If you want me to follow you into the Nothingness/Absence/Abyss, then prove to me that the world is not flat. You go there and then bring things back that proves to me that the world is not flat Smile . All rational minds make that request and that is a fair request. Love, John ("sunmystic", "Ya right!", "Where's the beef?!" Smile )
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Re: God

Post by Aussiepom on May 19th 2013, 4:11 pm

sunmystic wrote:
the Spirituality Forum's discussion guide line statement wrote:Spirituality


The
study of spirituality goes deeply into the heart of every matter and
extends far beyond the physical world of matter. Spirituality connects
you with the profoundly powerful and divine force that's present in this
universe. Whether you're looking for worldly success, inner peace, or
supreme enlightenment, no knowledge can propel you to achieve your goals
and provide as effective a plan for living as does spiritual knowledge.

I guess my question is, "Does the above have anything to do with what we are calling "God"?" and, "Does the above have anything to do with what we are discussing in this topic?"



John

Yes John,I think it does. Many excellent topics veer away from the main point. We put out 'legs' or in other words,we suggest new ideas to do with the main topic. To discuss one point about a subject can quickly become very boring.
Also,it is nice to hear other's opinions and their ideas.
Very Happy
Joan


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Re: God

Post by Guest on May 20th 2013, 1:23 am

Dear John,
You have summed matters up very nicely.
The Abyss is indeed like the edge of the world and
the world is afloat in a nothingness.This is true in
the universal and the particular.Knowledge is comfortable
and to a certain extant controllable so it is understandable to build worlds based on this.
One point of interest it would appear not all
so called advanced spirits in the afterlife recognise
this Abyss.In fact they are adamant that all is mind or god.
There is however in an indirect way confirmation from a teacher in
the Spirit world that this Abyss is real.
The late Dr Murdo MacDonald-Bayne in Durban in
South Africa materialised at a seance of the late
Alec Harris and mentioned he was still teaching
that from unknowingness ,knowingness arises.
He taught this while alive.
It may be so that the realisation of the Abyss can only
be done in a human form.This is just conjecture.
For myself after these discussions I am abandoning
all ideas of a core-self or even having a mind.
I will see where this will take me.

I would like to add,it is not my intent to prove anything here.
I am hoping to provide information which someone may find
useful in their own development.I may have given inadvertently the view that
somehow I know more than others.This is completely
erroneous.I consider myself a neophyte and a student.
I learn all the time and am grateful to have met all you wonderful
people.
Thanks
Stephen

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